Tavi Gevinson is a writer and actress known for creating the illustrious Rookie Magazine. Her latest written work includes culturally vibrant and thought-provoking pieces for publications such as the New Yorker, as well as the recently released satirical zine, Fan Fiction. While revisiting Rookie Magazine and its accompanying yearbooks, I had the exciting opportunity to interview Tavi.
For a comprehensive list of her work (both written and performed!), I recommend checking out the beautifully illustrated tavigevinson.world.
Photo of Tavi taken by Zoe Freilich
Julia Chiappe: To start off with something writing-related, what does your typical writing environment look like? So, like coffee or tea? Music or silence?
Tavi Gevinson: I try to wake up and make coffee and start writing. Maybe I’ll kind of journal first or do what some people call “morning pages,” but I like to try to do it before I check my email and before the demands of the day and other people’s work schedules start to need my time and attention. I try to adhere to that as much as I can, but I also try to think of myself as adaptable and hope that that makes me adaptable because I think being too precious about it and having to believe that I need like really specific conditions. I just know that that’s kind of a myth. I mean obviously, some conditions are really not ideal for writing but I know that I’ve had moments where I’ve had to duck into a cafe and do edits on something really quickly and of course, I like to avoid feeling rushed or chaotic or like I’m in a less than ideal environment as much as I can but I try to just think like it’s a task. It’s a job. It’s an artistic practice, but it’s also, in a helpful way, a job. Just a job. So that kind of lets me make sure I just keep momentum going instead of getting scared or out of practice.
Chiappe: Yeah, definitely. I think I’ve fallen victim to the myth that I need certain conditions. Or like, if I write something and I feel like it went really well and then I want to try and recreate that same environment. I have learned that I don’t think a cafe setting is [for me]. Maybe for quick edits and things that I need to get done for school but creatively, everything goes out of my head when I’m too pressured. I think that’s the way to go, starting your morning with something low-stakes and getting the juices flowing. So, pivoting to other people’s media—TV shows and books—I think an example of a wonderfully complex and realistically flawed female character is in Phoebe Waller Bridge’s Fleabag. I think it’s incredible. What are some examples of other complex female characters, either from the last few years that you’ve loved or just your all-time favorites?
Tavi Gevinson: Oh, that’s such a good question. I really love the Wendy books by Walter Scott. They’re graphic novels and there are four of them. I just think the sense of humor and the style are really amazing, but also Wendy is a great messy character and so are her friends. Honestly, the new JLo movie, question mark? And its accompanying documentary, question mark? You’re like, this woman is doing something incredibly risky. She’s self-financing a $20 million dollar thing and she doesn’t know whether to call it a movie, or a music video. Have you seen either of—?
Chiappe: I haven’t, but I’ve seen the response. I’ve seen the trailer and I know it’s all over the place, but I mean she’s a very powerful businesswoman so I can respect that.
It’s kind of hard to believe that I’m watching something that has the look and the romance of a film from that time but feels so much like I’m just watching another person have to make really difficult and emotional and very real decisions.
Tavi Gevinson: Yes, I think I really identified with how much it feels like she’s trying to—You know, she’s made this big investment in her work and then used that to pay off and you kind of lose your mind a bit. And the movie Brief Encounter—I’ll make that the third and last one—I saw recently for the first time. It’s older, I’m not sure what year exactly. It’s a very romantic, old, black-and-white movie. I guess maybe naively, I expect movies from—it has to be like the ’40s. I’m going to look it up—I expect those characters and those romances to be—yeah, it’s from 1945—to be kind of really old-fashioned, and for the women in those movies to be really flat. I think a lot of my favorite female characters in film are actually these kind of conniving women from old screwball comedies like The Lady Eve, or in this film, Brief Encounter, it’s about a housewife who has an affair and it’s really hard for her and especially at that time, frowned upon and it’s basically an emotional affair if I’m remembering correctly, but I felt like, it’s kind of hard to believe that I’m watching something that has the look and the romance of a film from that time but feels so much like I’m just watching another person have to make really difficult and emotional and very real decisions.
Chiappe: Yeah I love that. I think sometimes it’s even more fun and empowering when you can take older movies or books and find this spin on their characterization. In fact, I took a class my first year at Berkeley called “Madwomen,” and it was all literature—like The Awakening by Kate Chopin—all of these books about women that were just leading very normal lives, but of course, in that time period were looked at as being mad, but in reality when you go back and dissect them, it’s very empowering and they were the most normal people ever, but yeah, I really love that. You mentioned graphic novels, and of course, I have to touch upon the film Shortcomings, which was based on a graphic novel and just came to Netflix. You play Autumn in the film [which is set in Berkeley!]. What was it like getting to take on the role of Autumn and how does that type of role differ when you have source material versus a completely new character like in Gossip Girl?
Tavi Gevinson: Well I think because a graphic novel, you know, it’s not like it has all this backstory and information about Autumn that you might have in a different kind of novel, but it doesn’t need that. I mean, you have all the information you need in her energy and her manner and the script was a chance for Adrian [Adrian Tomine, the cartoonist/writer], and the director, Randall Park, and for me to let the characters be. You need different things to feel like you know characters in a film than you need if you’re reading a graphic novel. I feel like, in a graphic novel, what’s so beautiful about Adrian’s work, especially, is that it’s kind of about how you can do as much as possible with as little as possible even in a single panel. And then in a film you want to feel like you know people more, so I think one thing I found really helpful was the costumes were so specific. The costume designer, Ava Hama, had worked on Gossip Girl, actually, as well, and so I already knew her, and she just did such a great job with an indie budget of bringing in her own clothes, thrifting stuff and finding really special pieces that, this girl who I think, kind of enjoys calling attention to herself would want to wear. Then also, the production design. Her apartment was so specific and great and I think—Sorry, I’m forgetting what you asked me.
Chiappe: What was it like getting to take on the role (which) you kind of touched upon and how does it differ from when you’re preparing for a role that has no source material, backstory, or anything to draw from?
Tavi Gevinson: Yeah. Well, it was really fun to be able to just build on what was already there, but I think, in a way, there isn’t such a big distinction in my mind. Maybe also because Autumn, you know she isn’t the most present character in the book, so it’s not like there was so much more in the book than in the screenplay with her. I think that they kind of both felt the same to me where I just felt like I was getting whatever information I could from Adrian and Randall with Shortcomings, or in the case of Gossip Girl, our showrunner, Josh Safran. I just kind of (do) basic scene studies alone at home ahead of time and just try to know my lines really well and then once you’re already on set, everything kind of changes because there’s so much stimulation and a lot of things make sense that didn’t really make sense when you were at home. Especially because it’s not like I was playing someone really different from me in a period piece. I think that a lot of those characters, who they were, emerged from being on set, trying to be really comfortable, and (trying to) match the tone and react to the other people. God, I’m sorry! It’s hard to remember (laughs).
Chiappe: No that’s okay! I understand what you’re trying to say, like there’s not a stark difference between—especially in this example like you said—if you were coming into an acting role with this very specific, thick, period piece novel, you’d have a lot to study and get into the role, but yeah, I think Autumn is a very versatile character too and I think she reflects a lot of different people, including yourself, maybe, so it’s not as shocking of a transition.
It’s just a matter of constantly trying to recalibrate around what’s useful, and if something is not useful and it’s making me more closed-off, or more precious, or more attached to, say, what I prepared at home than what you can make in a room with other people, then it’s probably not useful anymore.
Tavi Gevinson: Yeah, I think also, if it’s more helpful, like I’ve played historical figures in plays? Like, I played “Squeaky” Fromme the Manson girl who tried to assassinate President Ford, although her gun wasn’t loaded, and I played Mary Warren from the Salem Witch Trials and I feel like I did a lot of research that was really interesting and made it more real to me and gave me good ideas, and you can watch interviews with Squeaky Fromme and all of that, but if it’s not in the writing it can get in the way. I think I’ve struggled with making it like I’m trying to shoehorn, say like these other aspects of these people where you’re like, that’s actually not serving the scene because it’s not on the page. So, it’s just a matter of constantly trying to recalibrate around what’s useful, and if something is not useful and it’s making me more closed-off, or more precious, or more attached to, say, what I prepared at home than what you can make in a room with other people, then it’s probably not useful anymore.
Chiappe: I could totally see that. That’s really interesting. You mentioned Autumn’s wardrobe. I think costume design and wardrobe choices are so important to capturing (the) essence of a character. Who are some of your favorite fictional fashion inspirations?
Tavi Gevinson: Wow. The other day I was just talking about the movie, The World of Henry Orient. I haven’t seen it in a long time but it’s about two fangirls, basically, who stalk their concert pianist celebrity crush all around Manhattan, and feel very betrayed when he’s seeing a woman, if I remember correctly. Those costumes were done by Ann Roth, who’s an iconic costume designer. If you look her up, you’ll see her work spanning decades. The girls wear furs and Adidas Superstars and they must have been on the mood board for Margot Tenenbaum, I’m guessing. So, I don’t really dress like that anymore but I love both of those movies. I feel like in terms of others. Gosh. I’ll leave it there. I think that’s a good fictional style reference.
Chiappe: I’m going to have to check that out because I love Margot Tenenbaum’s style and anything related to fangirls. In fact, I was just watching this movie from peak Tumblr era with Kiernan Shipka called Fan Girl, and it’s kind of the same idea. She follows All Time Low to a concert and so I love anything of that nature.
Tavi Gevinson: I’ve never seen that movie but that seems very fun.
Chiappe: It’s fun. It kind of captures what it feels like to be a fangirl in high school. You know, the fishnets and Tumblr style. It’s like a time capsule. Okay, this is a very specific question but, (laughs) you’ve interviewed some really incredible people over the years like Sofia Coppola, Greta Gerwig, Stevie Nicks, the list goes on. In an effort to put a spin on the typical “dinner party” question, I will ask instead: If you could choose one person, living or dead, to accompany you on a tandem bike ride, who would it be? Very random but I feel like it could tell a lot about a person.
Tavi Gevinson: Yeah definitely. That’s a great question. Oh, man. I—Oh no. Dead? Oh gosh.
Chiappe: (Laughs) Yeah that widens the scope a little bit, makes it more difficult.
Tavi Gevinson: For sure. Yeah. You know what? I should be aiming “higher” meaning dead, but honestly, I just saw Cole Escola’s play and it’s just like—they play Mary Todd Lincoln who’s desperate to be an actress in the months leading up to Lincoln’s assassination. It’s a comedy. I just think they’re so brilliant and their stage presence is so…and rubbery, and I just feel like them on a tandem bike would be great. And also, you just don’t know—I don’t know that much about them. I don’t know if they’re very forthcoming about their life or I guess I haven’t read enough about them but it makes me intrigued.
Chiappe: I feel like that would make for good conversation. You’re stuck with the person, it’s high-stakes, but also kind of calming (laughs), so no that’s a great answer! Let’s see… I love your website design. As you can see [points to surrounding bookshelf], I love color, I love art and everything. It kind of reminds me of a map at the beginning of a book, introducing you to a world. If you could live in any fictional world, what would it be? Like from your childhood or from recently?
Tavi Gevinson: Hmm. I think, yeah, the books you read when you’re little that you really want to escape into…nothing can really compete with that. You know I loved Pippi Longstocking when I was little. This girl, kind of living without adults and having a pet monkey. All of that was very appealing to me and seemed like the height of freedom so it would probably be that. But I’m also like, I haven’t read all of the—I don’t remember Pippi Longstocking that well and it’s possible that there’s like violence in that world or something that I’m forgetting about (laughs). But you know, the kind of young girl in a house alone with a monkey, doing what she wants and being adventurous really appeals to me.
Chiappe: I loved Pippi Longstocking when I was younger and from what I remember, it seemed pretty calm (laughs).
Tavi Gevinson: Maybe like conflict with adults, but like?
Chiappe: I mean, if that’s the worst of her world then that’s pretty good! (laughs) Ok, I remember you saying in an interview that living in New York was like living in a diorama, which I love. I have grown up in the Bay Area and I agree with the masses that Joan Didion does a really beautiful job at capturing what it feels like to be a Californian, or just the essence of California itself. And so I’m wondering, are there any examples of either authors or novels or films, even, that you think accurately depict the essence of New York life?
I mean it’s partly a really sad essay, but it’s about love and friendship and twinship and, as I remember it—I just remember being really taken with the descriptions of this feeling that there was some kind of fluid relationship between your friendships, your relationships, and art.
Tavi Gevinson: Well I think… one of New York’s defining qualities is that you have so many different people living in what is ultimately a pretty condensed space. And you know, it’s a huge city of many boroughs, but I kind of think the multiplicity is one of the things that I love about it, and I love how when you think of a New York movie, that could mean so many different filmmakers. But, when I first moved here, I think one of the first books I read was White Girls by Hilton Als, and the first essay in that book, especially, is—it’s like, I don’t even—he might not even say like “We all lived in New York.” I think I just knew that he was in New York from his descriptions of—I mean it’s partly a really sad essay, but it’s about love and friendship and twinship and, as I remember it—I just remember being really taken with the descriptions of this feeling that there was some kind of fluid relationship between your friendships, your relationships, and art. And like, the art you experience with people or the art you compare yourselves to, or the art that you associate with someone…I think that it felt very New York to me because there was just so much viewing, you know, seeing movies and plays. The archives at the libraries here are such great parts of my life and talking about them with friends. And not that that isn’t possible in other places, but it’s an experience I really associate with New York and I think that a lot of his writing captures that kind of viewing.
Chiappe: Yeah no I love that. I haven’t read that yet, but I love anything that takes the mundane and finds a way to make it really magical, in a sense. I think a quality in Joan Didion’s writing about California—the kind of slow living here, especially her experience directly in the Bay Area, it’s just—the things that she writes about that I grew up seeing, through her lens now, I’m like how did that translate to that for you? It’s cool when someone makes that connection and you really resonate with it.
Tavi Gevinson: I’ll also shout out the movie Girlfriends, which I think is maybe not as known, but you watch it and you’re like “Oh, Greta watched this. Lena Dunham watched this.” It’s just a great movie about female friendship.
Chiappe: That’s awesome. Okay. Wrapping it up with my last question…Are there any upcoming projects, either of your own or anything coming out soon, within the next two years…that you’re especially excited for?
Tavi Gevinson: Within the next two years?
Chiappe: I mean, two years came to my mind (laughs), but I feel like within any time period. I don’t know, that was just the threshold.
Tavi Gevinson: Yeah, no. I appreciate that because I was like “Well everything I’m working on is taking a really long time.” I hope that the things that I’m working on are out by then. When does this come out?
Chiappe: This? Probably, in the next two weeks (laughs).
Tavi Gevinson: Oh, okay. I wonder what I can say. Yeah, I’m sorry to be—but I don’t know if I can really talk about anything. Partly because just the pressure it kind of puts on myself. I mean I will say I’m working on an Edith Wharton-related project, which feels relevant to your publication.
Chiappe: That’s so exciting. I’m a big Edith Wharton fan.
Tavi Gevinson: I wrote a really short—let’s call it a novella—that I’m going to share soon. Maybe around the time that this comes out. [It’s now out and linked below!] That’s fiction! So that’s—and it’s about fandom, so.
Chiappe: That checks all the boxes for me. Alright well that’s all of the questions I have! Thank you again… for taking the time. It’s such a full-circle moment to be able to talk to you…
Tavi Gevinson: Thanks Julia, thanks for the great questions. Good luck with everything!
Shortcomings is now streaming on Netflix. Tavi’s satirical fiction, “Fan Fiction,” can be found here.
BERKELEY FICTION REVIEW 